# How does the Patreon system work? Decline payments, outstanding amounts etc **URL:** \ **Category:** Uncategorized\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131 "2017-11-28T14:37:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/sam/32/492_2.png) [@sam](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/1 "2017-11-28T14:37:25Z")
Hi! Although I’m familiar with how Patreon works in general, there are some specifics of the system that I am unclear on. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated, thank you. 1. If a reward requires shipping is an address mandatory, or can there be cases where a user chooses a reward that includes a physical component but does not provide their address? 2. Do `is_paused` pledges count towards the `user_limit`, or does a user relinquish their reward when they pause? or can the number of patrons exceed the user\_limit if a payment is declined then resumed by fixing billing details? 3. Does a pledge that has been `declined_since` continue to gather an outstanding amount? e.g: If I pledge $5 per month and my payment is declined this month, will my outstanding balance be $5 until the charge succeeds or will it grow by $5 each month? 4. How often are declined payments retried? 5. Is there any circumstance in which pledges are automatically deleted? 6. Does `patron_pays_fees` ever equal true, or is this a legacy/unimplemented feature? 7. Does `pledge_cap_cents` refer to the [cap a patron can set for per post campaign types](https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203913729-How-do-I-set-a-monthly-max-to-my-pledge-)? 8. Do payment declined pledges count towards the `user_limit`, or does a user relinquish their reward when their payment is declined? 9. What does the `outstanding_payment_amount_cents` value on the Campaign resource represent? 10. What pledge values make up the `pledge_sum` value on a Campaign resource? Does this exclude declined pledges? ---
**Author:** ![sam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/sam/32/492_2.png) [@sam](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/2 "2017-11-28T14:39:44Z")
Reviewing the Patreon support site I believe I’m able to answer questions 3 and 4 myself, but confirmation these answers are correct would be helpful: 1. No — “Please note that a patron will only ever have one declined bill. If they decline once, we will not continue to charge them for future months.” [via support.patreon.com](https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002832126-When-Are-My-Patrons-Charged-When-Do-Payments-Get-Processed-). 2. For up to 5 days — “We will try to collect funds for the first 5 days […] We’ve found that 5 days is about the point when continuing to retry the existing payment method won’t make a difference, and new billing information is needed.” [via support.patreon.com](https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002832126-When-Are-My-Patrons-Charged-When-Do-Payments-Get-Processed-). ---
**Author:** ![tal](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/tal/32/4_2.png) [@tal](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/tal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/3 "2017-11-30T00:53:29Z")
**Phew! Great questions. @telaviv is here with me and we’re gonna do our best. This is really helpful to write out and we should totally put it in our developer guides/FAQ - so thank you for asking these.** > If a reward requires shipping is an address mandatory, or can there be cases where a user chooses a reward that includes a physical component but does not provide their address? **The answer is yes. For example, as a patron I can choose to pay say, $5.00, while explicitly choosing no reward in the pledge checkout flow. If as a patron I chose a reward, the shipping address is required.** > Do is\_paused pledges count towards the user\_limit, or does a user relinquish their reward when they pause? or can the number of patrons exceed the user\_limit if a payment is declined then resumed by fixing billing details? **They do count toward the limit, as do declined pledges.** > Does a pledge that has been declined\_since continue to gather an outstanding amount? e.g: If I pledge $5 per month and my payment is declined this month, will my outstanding balance be $5 until the charge succeeds or will it grow by $5 each month? **It will remain $5 - it will not accumulate.** > How often are declined payments retried? **Without getting into detail, there’s an entire system in place which is very effective in getting declined/retried payments processed for creators. These range from automatic retries to persistently encouraging patrons to update their information.** > Is there any circumstance in which pledges are automatically deleted? **There are several ways in which a pledge may be deleted outside of patrons explicitly deleting that pledge. These include:** - **Patron deleting a _payment method_ that was paying for that pledge** - **Creators blocking patrons** - **Trust and safety actions, etc.** > Does patron\_pays\_fees ever equal true, or is this a legacy/unimplemented feature? **This indeed a legacy/unimplemented feature. We really need to clean up these resources in future versions!** > Does pledge\_cap\_cents refer to the cap a patron can set for per post campaign types? **Yes! Correct. This is a weird one, since at the pledge checkout flow patrons set the cap by number of posts in the UI. However, our internal payments logic converts it to dollars.** > Do payment declined pledges count towards the user\_limit, or does a user relinquish their reward when their payment is declined? **Declined pledges do count toward the user\_limit.** > What does the outstanding\_payment\_amount\_cents value on the Campaign resource represent? **Odd answer unfortunately: We recommend not using this field. We’ll be cleaning this up in future versions.** _For your last question I’ve asked @carmein for help!_ ---
**Author:** ![sam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/sam/32/492_2.png) [@sam](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/sam)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/4 "2017-11-30T01:00:02Z")
Thank you very much for the answers! Very helpful and appreciated. I’ll probably have a couple more soon(ish), but generally, everything seems to be easy to understand based on the developer documentation and the patreon help site. Thanks again! ---
**Author:** ![carmein](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/carmein/32/86_2.png) [@carmein](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/carmein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/5 "2017-11-30T01:15:15Z")
Hi @sam! Awesome questions. I’m on the Patreon Payments Team and happy to help with question #10. > What pledge values make up the pledge\_sum value on a Campaign resource? Does this exclude declined pledges? **The pledge\_sum value is the dollar amount you see on a creator’s public page (when the creator has made it visible). You can find it on the creator’s page where you see “$X per thing” or “$X per month”** **More granularly, this dollar amount reflects:** - **If they’re a per-month creator, it’s the expected take-home dollar amount for the month.** - **If they’re per-thing, it’s the expected take-home dollar amount from the creator’s first post (subsequent posts are affected by patrons’ monthly post caps).** **… take-home dollar amount is calculated by taking the total sum of pledges multiplied by the percentage we expect the creator to take home (based on their individual history).** **It does not include pledges that have already declined. It does, however, assume that the rest of the pledges will process (i.e. as if no more declines will happen).** ---
**Author:** ![sam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.patreondevelopers.com/sam/32/492_2.png) [@sam](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/u/sam)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://www.patreondevelopers.com/t/how-does-the-patreon-system-work-decline-payments-outstanding-amounts-etc/131/6 "2017-11-30T01:26:36Z")
Great, thank you! Very helpful 🙂